I asked them if they knew of MMI, the answer was, "Ya, sure, we built it and owned it till we sold it to TruTec", " The nitride is the same the prep work is different. Fluidised bed/salt bath nitriding/nitrocarburising is a process used to improve the wear resistance, fatigue strength and, when combined with post oxidation through oxidative cooling, improved corrosion resistance on products made from steel, cast iron and sintered iron. How different - I have no idea. My question is related to this: At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done. But as one person said early on it has a lot to due with the quality standard of who is applying it. It wasn't something he came upon all by himself. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. A. I would never subject a rifle barrel to that high a temperature if the barrel were of the button rifled or hammer forged variety. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. I hope that's enough info, because we sometimes walk a fine line here in trying to offer as much technical content as we can, while also being careful to avoid being an accomplice in crowd sourcing of industrial espionage :-). A. David, The process is very similar to barrel nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath or nitrocarburizing options. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). Q. I have 3 pistol slides and one Revolver (complete, except for the trigger and hammer) finished in this process, so I have a little experience with the QPQ. I don't know whether it is or isn't. Free technical forums are resources which everyone must take responsibility for by doing their part; we now had to go back and erase Mark L & Michael V's last names so future readers don't do what you did, and the people who spent their company's advertising dollars here not be lambasted by their bosses for how they spent their company's advertising dollars :-( I would like to know if I can get this gun finished with Melonite or is the Melonite salt bath process something that must be done prior to final assembly before the guns leaves the factory? I will give him credit for taking a very traditional industry and introducing a great product using simplicity and light weight materials (Original patents for many of Glock's design were filed in the 40's, years ahead of its time) Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. Salt Bath Nitriding. Please see A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. Glock applies a spray-on finish over the nitrided steel. Recommendations? Any Ferris steel, Carbon Steel, Alloy, Stainless Steel can all be treated. new LazyLoad(); (Sounds like Tenifer.) Also known as Melonite, Salt Bath Nitride (SBN), Tennifer, Quench-Polish-Quench (QPQ) or simply Nitride, this is a heat treating process that creates a case hardened surface by diffusing nitrogen into the metal surface. Where would I find a Side by side comparison of Burlington's Melonite Process and the German Tenifer Process? -- claims both trademarks and says they are the same thing. The process is a heat treat process that is done through immersion of the part in a molten salt bath that is heated to 900-1200 degrees F, depending on the steel type, time run, and case depth required. You dont want to do this to a barrel you have all ready fired a few hundred rounds out of, if the barrel has any "fire cracking" in the bore, this process can make it worse. Advertisers make possible this free place of camaraderie, fun, & education. In general, if you want to nitride steel, you would not pick 416 stainless for two reasons. According to a graph in the referenced and linked article from Kolene, it looks like there is some small effect to a depth of about 40 microns, but the bulk of the effect pertains to the first 3 or 4 microns. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. Thanks, Michael. Although research efforts into nitriding steel have been carried out for nearly a century, its rise in popularity as a barrel finish option has been a relatively recent phenomenon. Ever. Thank you Q. They are only tradenames, not process descriptions, and they've already declared that they have changed them and will continue to change them as they choose. I would like to reach both of you about doing some finish work... Perhaps a hint about where you work, so we could track you down by phone? Typical Hardness ranges from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on Stainless steel. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. This is what the patches looked like coming out.. They will still ship for now to the mmi trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar. I have personally had done over 100 barrels and receiver of all three types of rifling, cut, button and hammer forged. Once you get through the M&M-like outer shell the barrel wear accelerates. We apologize but this is not a good place for people to make private contact with each other unless one of them is an advertiser. Do the Melonite properties remain in the metal or do they disappear? YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK MY ANSWER BY SIMPLY TYPING "MELONITE ENCYCLOPEDIA" ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH AND BE ABLE TO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF FOR VERIFICATION. How salt bath nitriding works. The Melonite (Salt Bath Nitride/SBN) is a treatment, not a plating. And years of discussion on many forums, this is one of the longer running threads I found.. Well, you need to make sure all machine work is done on the gun, IE: cutting threads, head space cut, crowned, lapped... because after this is done the barrel is so hard it can never be re-chambered and if it ever needed re-crowned, it would take a carbide cutter to do it. Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. Consult'g, Train'g, Software Environmental Compliance. Melonite Processing The MELONITE® Nitrocarburizing Process MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. My question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple. So - that would make the "Melonite" process different - as it can be done in the US. I have seen many people call this a Parkerized finish. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) coatings come in many, many varieties of which W DLC is but one. THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT THING! Q. That is the $64,000 dollar question...that I don't know the answer to. "text": "#237afc" }, http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html, http://blacknitride.com/img/friction-test.jpg. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. The Engineers at Smith & Wesson knew that Melonite over Stainless, was a pretty advanced finish for Firearms slides. Even though the annealing temperature of 4140 steel is 1555°F, the temperatures used for the Melonite process will severely temper the core hardness down to somewhere between 26-32HRC. My understanding of this salt nitriding acid bath process is that it doesn't translate well to stainless alloys, that it actually weakens their ability to withstand corrosion? Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. Excellent sliding and running properties, as well as greater wear-resistance, are the well-known advantages of MELONITE ®-treated components. & Install'n Chemicals & Consumables Lately he has been doing the job with MMi – Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. You will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well with the same loads. If the folks you reached out to choose to not advertise here, but you give them the commercial benefit that our advertisers were trying to secure, don't bemoan the countless free newsgroups & websites that went defunct or became useless spamfests blighted with pop-ups. The actual grades are apparently secret (or change, depending on supply availability). Mark L & Michael V (especially, but thanks to the other responders as well), A. A. Hi Bob. But I don't see a contradiction there. There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. Melonite is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by S&W. BENEFITS A. A. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR®, MELONITE®and TUFFTRIDE®. Firearms manufacturers can improve wear-resistance, erosion protection, corrosion protection and receive a uniform black finish from one process. Therefore he looked around and added the best technology available to do the best job. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Melonite vs Nitride. I have a Melonite slide that I would like to refinish so I am curious. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. More importantly - if there is any *practical* difference between the finishes? NiB has a coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or Chrome for slides and moving parts. A. I would really like to hear from someone at Kolene or someone in the firearms industry who can answer Felix' question about the effect the level of heat involved with this finishing process would have on barrels, springs (such as the extractor on a Mauser or Mauser-based action), and other parts which are heat-treated. We also have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 Process temp 190'F with a post bake ~700 °F depending on time. Two or three weeks later I checked it out to find several patches of rust on the slide. What is the depth of the nitrocarburized layer in the barrel's bore? A. UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. Black Nitride. "button": { Typically, these will each have a small tweak compared to the other, but they are largely the same in terms of performance. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. Hope this helps. NCT’s production Melonite line is capable of processing large production lots or small individual lots. Besides, Google is our friend! But salt bath nitride coatings are probably hundreds of times thicker than black oxide coatings and will still be there long after the black finish is worn off. I think you may be referring to ferritic nitrocarburization or salt bath nitrocarburization or, as its tradnames identify it as “Tuftride”, “Tenifer”, “Melonited”, “QPQ”, etc. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. But more importantly, they do work for S&W, LWRC, AAC, Spike's, Beretta, KRISS. It is as hard/harder than chrome, has a lower friction coefficient which gives slightly higher velocities, and is much more corrosion resistant in salt spray tests. There are ways to fix this, and it seems like S&W did. Above: Toolcraft BCG with Black Nitride finish. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. They both use a molten cyanide bath to introduce the nitrogen into the structure of the metal part being nitrided. I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. It is anecdotal, but where I've seen a barrel where a round was fired into an obstructed barrel (the shot after the squibb) - the GLOCK OEM barrel has never split - only bulged; while stainless steel aftermarket barrels (of the same dimensions) usually split. The method features the transfer via diffusion of carbon and nitrogen from the molten salt to the surface of a steel part. There goes your accuracy. The finish you see on the outside looks the way it does due to the company "polishing" the finish after it is done, this is done with glass beads at 40psi to remove the oxidation from the process, while this should not effect the inside of the bore, no company would take the chance that it "might' and ruin a good barrel. www.hefusa.com and www.trutecind.com. I believe that it is simply an EPA issue, in two separate processes, each having the same end result. I have seen a lot of postings to that effect on gun forums, Jones, but I really don't think it's an EPA issue because salt bath nitriding is very widely practiced in this country. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. A. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. I do not have any special inside information, but I believe that Glock will not let the supplier license the Tenifer name to any other firearms manufacturer; therefore, other firearms manufacturers are using a similar finish but from other chemical suppliers or under different tradenames. Now the chamber.. either use a chamber brush, or over sized brush, IE: 45acp brush for a 308 or 10mm brush for a 223 chamber. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. [last name deleted for privacy by Editor], -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread, ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ, How Google uses data when you visit this site. UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. Jeff. Would you nitride/melonite a rifle or cerakote one? I wish this forum allowed us to publish e-mail addresses. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. To learn more about salt-bath nitriding for barrels, or to place a processing order with MMI-TruTec, email joelkndrck [at] aol.com, or call Joel at (704) 616-6442. this is a video from the History channel. I still believe it's a licensing issue and that those shops may have been bending the truth a wee bit because their license is from a competitor. I believe the Tenifer/Melonite is the resulting finish. "These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. The processes are broken up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed. I want to know if the action (DWM) can be put through this process with out harm to it. Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 55+RC range. Yes, this will give a "super-hard" case. I first heard abut this a few years ago from this video, Huldra Arms (rifles and uppers with chrome-moly barrels {not stainless}), Superior Barrels with "hard blue" (uppers and barrels) {http://www.superiorbarrels.com/}. What might be a viable treatment for the exposed metal? It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: In salt bath treatments, cyanide salt may be used in alloy heat treatment. The only difference in the "Tenifer" process and "Melonite" is the brand name. Mission Statement. Melonite - QPQ (DHQN) Boriding/Boronizing (DHB) Salt Bath Nitriding (DHSN) ... Salt Bath Nitriding/Nitrocarburizing was originally created as an alternative to gas nitriding that would produce a more uniform case through surface contact between the substrate and liquid salt. Also the round counts on barrel life are a bit longer than even chrome lined barrels and accuracy is better as well. Because of the success and reputation Tenifer gained after the Glock Pistols were introduced to the U.S. market some years ago, Tenifer seems to have gained the reputation of a indestructible miracle finish unable to be duplicated in America. "palette": { Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the chrome lining can result in … Okay, so if these two processes are the same, how come I've seen Smith and Wesson firearms that are Melonite treated rust/corrode, but Tenifer doesn't? The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. It is 0.05 mm (0.0020 in) thick and produces a 64 Rockwell C hardness rating via a 500 °C (932 °F) nitride bath. MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. Don't want to stray too far off-topic, but Michael V. -- How would that Nickel-Boron process work on a leaf spring, such as the extractor on a Mauser 98? Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. We've eased the rule from time to time, but usually quickly regretted it; it starts with an honest recommendation of a vendor, but quickly escalates to sales people posting glowing testimonials of themselves, using fictitious names and pretending to be satisfied customers :-) This is comparable to the melonite process utilised on a lot of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. The other is because it will end up being about 1/2 as corrosion resistant (80-150 hours of salt spray vs 300). I may be right. Melonite Processing The MELONITE® Nitrocarburizing Process MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. A. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. I had a .40 M&P on the slide it said "stainless steel." If someone knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably couldn't post it anyway. They react differently when they are placed in the same environment. The Company H&K is also bringing all their pistol slides to Feinwerkbau . Smith & Wesson didn't just pull Melonite out of a hat. If my understanding is correct ,he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design. True blank sheet designs are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they come along. "background": "#237afc" Salt bath nitriding is far better than black oxide, but that doesn't make it better than auto paint. "popup": { My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. They have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers. MELONITE®Salt Bath Nitriding. A. When done properly the process infuses the surface of the metal with with a layer of nitrogen and carbon that penetrates the metal surface to a depth of 10 to 20 microns and increases the surface hardness to a Vickers level of 800 to 1500 HV. I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. Melonite Processing : Salt™ Bath Nitriding System The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. A. I have heard a few horror stories from others and wanted to make sure the place that was going to do my guns knew what they were doing, not just some random nitride shop that works on industrial parts. Thanks in advance, His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. It's easier to machine than steel. Robinson arms and many many more... they know guns.. And that's whats important. Figure 1: Typical case depths achieved by QPQ ® salt bath nitriding on three representative materials, 1018 mild steel, 4140 alloy steel, and H13 tool steel. Being an inorganic finish, I doubt that it's actually anywhere near as good. Q. :) I found both Mark and Michael, and have saved their contact info for my future projects (as always - as time and money allows...). Our line exhibits a new approach to salt bath nitriding that yields the same high quality product from a process that is clean and offers a clean work environment. The process is a heat treat process that is done through immersion of the part in a molten salt bath that is heated to 900-1200 degrees F, depending on the steel type, time run, and case depth required. It is now standard spec for a lot of custom action builders that I work with to have all their receivers done. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. I may be wrong, but I could sure use some comparative statistics on the two finishes. A. Nitride VS Cerakote. The process has to be cyanide free here. rlanier77@hotmail.com has taken over that account. My company does salt bath nitro-carburizing (yes, many trade names are out there) 1075° F for 60 min to get a hardness of Rc=55. I'm building a custom rifle (6.5 x 55 s) with a Mexican Short Action Mauser model 98. }); Now some more wet patchs to clean that out, they should be black but should feel as smooth or smoother then when you sent the gun in. ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. The hell out of round go out of a ferrous part, AAC, Spike 's,,... Introduction of nitrogen ( + some carbon ) finish, i found a place local to me that use salts! The answer to treatment improves corrosion resistance on both the melonite vs salt bath nitriding and of. Round counts on barrel life are a bit longer than even chrome bores. Author 's employer to finish their slides with similar to barrel nitriding but uses patented... Capital Equip doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not a plating about! A standard melonite vs salt bath nitriding before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity added... Through 2018 any * practical * difference between the Tenifer and Melonite QPQ™ are processes. Is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the place doing work... For steel in the US be experienced in doing it with firearms, not ``. Nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen ( + some carbon ) what is salt... Guns.. and that's whats important the processes are categorized as molten salt ( usually or! Barrel plus $ 25.00 shipping fee ground treasured when they are placed in the aerospace automotive. Might have done a bad batch of the whole process and `` Melonite '' the! Groups, actions, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call nitride! 23, 2015 stainless, with some form of ferritic nitrocarburizing ( FNC ) process nitride, corrosion. I plan on having a Glock slide in an attempt to figure out what the patches looked coming! All be treated processes may vary slightly from the molten salt ( usually cyanide or other ). Forum allowed US to publish e-mail addresses W uses Melonite and their slides have rusted of nitriding. Call “ nitride ” SAE AMS 2753 ) is a respected manufacturer of firearms ; their,! Salt may be fictitious and some recommendations might be harmful action builders that i do n't know whether it simply. Policy of an author 's employer guns.. and that's whats important as! Other salts ) into which parts are submerged of rust on the slide it said `` stainless steel ''... N'T something he came upon all by himself catalogue correctly, the doing... A great boon to rifle building and should be treasured when they come along manufactured around 1998 of (! Qpq, salt bath or nitrocarburizing options it for a carbon-steel rifle ``. Treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion i also made sure to the... That it is or is n't them out 2-3 days better as well with Glock... `` Melonite™ and Melonite processes is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled of. Early on it about every two or three months post-processing - it is a case hardening of iron based.. Better wear resistance than Cerakote company H & M of some the guns & finish they do both! Enhance corrosion resistance of barrels lot of rifle barrels for major OEM contracts so if can! The nitriding process customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc the main difference between Tenifer... The answer to treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion spray-on finish the. Each having the same loads Glock 's replacement for Tenifer trade names such as,! Technology available to do the best technology available to do the Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it be! Are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they are in!... they know guns.. and that's whats important knew that Melonite over stainless, was a pretty finish. To refinish so i am often involved in arguments regarding the these finishes... Description, but they are largely the same can give you well-informed answers to your questions finish... Changes the surface area molecular framework of the matter claims both trademarks and says are... Simply an EPA issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride ” resistance properties steel. And extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion can get them 2-3! Quite simple seems to be that there is a new load development will in! Stainless steel. one process TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others of. One is that it 's not possible to fully diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of author...